Home > Hyperbole, Performance > Unfinished Business

Unfinished Business

-Update  11/4/13 – Darius approved the comment in question and said sorry, so I’m all happy now. Given how long and verbose my comments are, I suspect he simply didn’t have time to read through it and figure out if it was safe to publish on an Oracle hosted website. While I disagree with Darius on a lot of points, I also like a lot of what he writes, and I suspect he’d be an interesting guy to have a beer with 🙂

Forgive me socialmeda for I have sinned, It’s been four months since my last blogpost. There are a bunch of reasons for this, mostly that I’ve had some real-world stuff that’s been way more important than blogging, and I’ve limited my technical writing to posting comments on other blogs or answering questions on Linked-in. Before I start writing again, there’s something I’d like to get off my chest. It _really_ bugs me when people edit out relevant comments. As a case in point I was having what I believed to be a reasonably constructive conversation with Darius Zanganeh of Oracle on his blog , but for some reason he never approved my final comment which I submitted to his blog on December 7th 2012, the text of which follows. If you’re interested, head over to his blog and read the entire post, I think it’s pretty good, it showcases some impressive benchmark numbers Oracle has been able to achieve with scale-up commodity hardware. From my perspective this is a great example of  that a deeper analysis of good benchmarks demonstrate far more than  top line numbers and $/IOPS …and if you know me, then you know I just LOVE a good debate over benchmark results, so I couldnt resist commenting even though I really had better/more important things to do at the time.

Thanks Darius, its nice to know exactly what we’re comparing this to. I didn’t read the press releases, nor was I replying to that release, I was replying to your post which was primarily a comparison to the FAS6240.

 If you do want to compare the 7420 to the 3270, then I’ll amend the figures once again .. to get a 240% better result you used a box with

  1.  More than eleven times as many CPU cores
  2. More than one hundred and sixty times as much memory

 I really wish you’d also published Power Consumption figures too 🙂

 Regarding disk efficiency, we’ve already demonstrated our cache effectiveness. On a previous 3160 benchmark, we used a modest amount of extended cache and reduced the number of drives required by 75%. By way of comparison to give about 1080 IOPS/15K Spindle we implemented a cache that was 7.6% of the capacity of the fileset. The Oracle benchmark got about 956 IOPS/drive with a cache size about 22% of the fileset size.

 The 3250 benchmark on the other hand, wasn’t done to demonstrate cache efficiency, it was done to allow a comparison to the old 3270. It’s also worth noting that the 3250 is not a replacement for the 3270, it’s a replacement for the 3240 with around 70% more performance. Every benchmark we do is generally done to create a fairly specific proof point, in the case of the 3250 benchmark it shows that it has almost identical performance as the 3270 for a controller that sells at a much lower price point.

 We might pick one of our controllers and do a “here’s a set config and here’s the performance across every known benchmark” the way Oracle seems to have done with the 7420. It might be kind of interesting, but I’m not sure what it would prove. Personally I’d like to see all the vendors including NetApp do way more benchmarking of all their models, but it’s a time-consuming and expensive thing to do, and as you’ve already demonstrated, its easy to draw some pretty odd conclusions from them. We’ll do more benchmarking in the future, you’ll just have to wait to see the results 🙂

 Going forward, I think non-scale out benchmark configs will still be valid to demonstrate stuff like model replacement equivalency, and cache efficiency, but I’ll say it again, if you’re after “my number is the biggest” hero number bragging rights, scale out is the only game in town.  But scale-out isn’t just about hero-numbers, for customers to rapidly scale without disruption as needs change, scale-out is an elegant and efficient solution and they need to know they can do that predicably and reliably. That’s why you see the benchmark series like the ones done by NetApp and Isilon. Even though scale-out NFS is a relatively small market, and Clustered-ONTAP has a good presence in that market, scale-out Unified storage has much broader appeal and is doing really well for us.  I cant disclose numbers, but based on the information I have, I wouldn’t be surprised if the number of new clusters sold since March exceeds the number of Oracle 7420s sold in the same period, either way I’m happy with the sales of Clustered-ONTAP.

 As technology blogger, its probably worth pointing out that stock charts are a REALLY poor proxy for technology comparisons, but if you want to go there, you should also look at stuff like P/E multiples (an indication of how fast the market expects you to grow), and market share numbers. If you’ve got Oracle’s storage revenue and profitability figures hand for use to do a side by side comparison to the NetApp published financial reports, post them on up, personally I would LOVE to see a comparison. Then again, maybe your readers would prefer us to stick to talking about the merits of our technology and how that can help them solve the problems they’ve got.

 In closing, while this has been fun, I don’t have a lot more time to spend on this. I have expressed my concerns at the amount of hardware you had to throw at the solution to achieve your benchmark results, and the leeway that gives you to be  competitive with street pricing, but as I said initially your benchmark shows you can get a great scale-up number, and you’re willing to do that at a keen list price, nobody can take that away from you, kudos to you and your team.

Other than having an opportunity to have my final say, my comments also underlines some major shifts in the industry that I’ll be blogging about over the next few months.

1. If you’re after “my number is the biggest” hero number bragging rights, scale out is the only game in town

2. Scale out Unified and Clustered ONTAP is going really well, I cant publish numbers, but the uptake has surprised me, the level of interest I’ve seen from the breifings I’ve been doing has been really good.

3. Efficiency matters, getting good results by throwing boatloads of commodity hardware at a problem is one way of solving a problem, but it usually causes problems and shifts costs elsewhere in the infrastructure (power, cooling, rackspace, labour, software, compliance etc etc)

I’ll also be writing a fair amount about Flash and Storage Class Memory, and why some of the Flash Benchmarks/Claimed performance is silly enough in my opinion to to be bordering on deceptive … until then, be prepared to dig deeper when people start to claim IOPS measured in the millions, until then, have fun 🙂

John Martin (life_no_borders)

Categories: Hyperbole, Performance
  1. April 11, 2013 at 9:55 am

    Where is the netapp power calculator posted?

    • April 11, 2013 at 10:23 am

      The NetApp green visualizer power calculator isn’t published separately, as its part of our Synergy tool which for various reasons can only be provided to NetApp personnel and partners. Having said that a public green visualizer isn’t a bad idea, I might crank up a simple one for people to use here if I get the time.

      If you want to do some calculations by hand, customers can download the site requirements guide from our support site (I’m pretty sure Oracle has access given how many NetApp controllers are still being used inside of Oracle), If you really want you can check with Oracle’s NetApp SE to get the power draw for a given configuration, or if you dont know who that is, send me a config and I’ll put the power-draw up on this blog when I get some spare cycles.

      If you’re interested in the 3270 (which is from our conversation on your blog the config you were the most interested in), then check out our SPC-1e configuration where we gave detailed power consumption figures.


      My understanding is that the 3250 power draw is substantially similar.

  2. April 11, 2013 at 10:34 am

    Hi John,
    Please post the powercalc for these exact configs both at 100% utilization.
    3270 http://www.spec.org/sfs2008/results/res2010q4/sfs2008-20101018-00171.html
    3250 http://www.spec.org/sfs2008/results/res2012q4/sfs2008-20121015-00216.html

    The SPC configuration is different at in that it only has 120 drives versus the SPEC SFS benchmarks with 326 and 360 drives each.

    • April 11, 2013 at 7:21 pm

      I’ll try to get to these tomorrow 🙂

      • Darius Zanganeh
        April 11, 2013 at 11:38 pm

        Sounds great.

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